Sam Frost and Howard Denham on Martyr Vindication – #6
This the conclusion of our examination of a recent exchange on FaceBook, in which Sam Frost, former preterist, and Howard Denham, church of Christ minister, sought to respond to my YouTube videos on the Resurrection and Martyr Vindication.
Be sure to watch those videos, and, be sure to read the first five installments of this examination of Frost and Denham. #1 #2 #3 #4 #5
Let me now turn to showing, as I promised to do above, the utter self-defeating nature of Frost and Denham’s argument about the martyrs, and their question: If the martyrs were vindicated in AD 70, what about all the martyrs since then. Now, for those who honor scripture, the reference to Revelation 14:13 should be enough. But, there is more. Much, much more!
To fully grasp the power of my argument, we must discuss, briefly, the issue of the millennium and the New Creation.
Frost believes – contra Denham – that at the end of the Millennium, earth will be renovated and restored to its Edenic utopian condition. There is no end to that New Creation. It is, utopia.Unless he has changed his position on this also, he posits the current Christian age as the Millennium. (I should note that Denham would call Frost’s view of a restored, utopian earth a false doctrine and heresy).
Denham, unless I am mistaken – contra Frost – believes that at the end of the Millennium, the current Christian age, earth and the cosmos is totally annihilated and burned, right down to the atomic level.
What is important to see about both of these positions is that both men maintain that after the millennium, in the “New Creation” (in whatever form each man believes it to be), there are no martyrs! Please catch the power of this! Neither Frost or Denham believe that in the New Creation, that comes after the parousia of Christ, the judgment and the resurrection, there will be any martyrs! There will be, therefore, no need for the vindication of martyrs.
Here is my argument:
If it is the case that Babylon of Revelation has been judged and destroyed, then it is undeniably true that the end of the Millennium has arrived and that we live in the eternal, unending New Creation.
If we live in the eternal, unending New Covenant Creation, then there is no “eschatological, Day of the Lord vindication of the martyrs” that is coming. To say that this is problematic for Frost and Denham is a huge understatement.
Let me vindicate (pun intended) this argument.
The coming of the Lord in Revelation is the time of the vindication of the martyrs and the Wedding at the judgment and destruction of Babylon of Revelation (Revelation 19:1-6).
The time of the Wedding of Christ is the time of his “Second Coming” (Matthew 25:1-13).
The “Second Coming” of Christ is at the end of the Millennium (Revelation 20:10-12).
Therefore, the judgment of Babylon and the Second Coming of Christ for the Wedding and the vindication of the martyrs, occurs at the end of the Millennium.
And now, hang onto your hat at this juncture and follow closely.
Sam Frost believes that Babylon of Revelation was Old Covenant Jerusalem. He stated this explicitly on FaceBook on 2-21-17. With this in mind, consider the following:
The “Second Coming” of Christ is at the end of the Millennium and the full arrival of the eternal New Creation– Sam Frost.
The Second Coming of Christ is for the Wedding – Matthew 25:1-13.
But, the Second Coming of Christ for the Wedding is at the destruction of Babylon and the avenging of the martyrs (Revelation 19:1-6).
Therefore, the Second Coming of Christ for the Wedding and the vindication of the martyrs- at the end of the Millennium – was at the destruction of Babylon / Jerusalem!
By admitting that Babylon of Revelation was Old Covenant Jerusalem, Mr. Frost has totally falsified his objections to my position and falsified his view of the martyrs, the resurrection, and the Millennium! All by admitting that Babylon of Revelation was Old Covenant Jerusalem! Be sure to get a copy of my book Who Is This Babylon? for full proof that Babylon of Revelation as in fact Old Covenant Jerusalem.
If, as Mr. Frost’s admission demands, we are in the New Creation that followed the destruction of Babylon, there is not another eschaton. There is not another Day of the Lord– thus, no more prophets– no more “time of the end”, no more “last days.”
And let me note that Mr. Denham’s view fares no better.
If Denham accepts the dominant, historical view of the churches of Christ, that Babylon of Revelation was Rome, (For instance, my church of Christ opponent in formal public debate, July 1016, Dr. David Hester, posited Babylon as Rome), he has actually become what I will call a late preterist! Let me explain by simply re-stating, in different words, the argument just above.
The “Second Coming” of Christ is at the end of the Millennium and the full arrival of the eternal New Creation– Howard Denham.
The Second Coming of Christ is for the Wedding – Matthew 25:1-13.
But, the Second Coming of Christ for the Wedding is at the destruction of Babylon and the avenging of the martyrs (Revelation 19:1-6).
Babylon of Revelation was ancient Rome – Howard Denham (Assuming he takes the traditional church of Christ view).
Therefore, the Second Coming of Christ for the Wedding and the vindication of the martyrs- at the end of the Millennium, was at the destruction of Babylon / Rome!
By claiming that Babylon of Revelation was Rome, Mr. Denham has totally falsified his objections to my position and falsified his view of the martyrs, the resurrection, and the Millennium! All by claiming that Babylon of Revelation was Rome!
Rome fell in AD 476. Thus, per Mr. Denham’s paradigm, the coming of the Lord, the judgment of Babylon, the vindication of the martyrs and the Wedding MUST have occurred in AD 476, and as just suggested, Mr. Denham has become a “late preterist!”
Denham’s posit of Babylon as Rome demands that we are in the New Creation that followed the destruction of Babylon. Thus, there is not another eschaton. There is not another Day of the Lord– thus, no more prophets– no more “time of the end”, no more “last days.” There is not another persecutorial Babylon.
(Remember that in Revelation 11, as discussed in an earlier installment, inspired, infallible, authoritative prophets would function, performing miracles, until the judgment of Babylon and the resurrection! Thus, Denham’s position demands that the charismata endured and functioned until the fifth century AD, a view that he would categorically reject. But, you cannot affirm that Babylon of Revelation was Rome without logically demanding this. It is inescapable and irrefutable).
So, what we have in Frost and Denham’s questions about martyr vindication post AD 70 is that they have revealed that they simply have not thought through their eschatology, and they most assuredly have not thought through what the Bible says about it.
Frost boasted that I had not answered the question about the martyrs since AD 70. He said: “They can’t say, “yes”, because then you involve the Purpose of God unfolding in history, time and space. They can’t say, “no”, because, well, what do you do with 2000 years of church history? Best answer: I dunno.”
The truth is that: “Yes, there have been and are martyrs since AD 70. But, there is no future Day of the Lord, at some end of time for their vindication. Revelation 14:13 settles that for those interested in the truth.
And, Frost is patently right when he notes that there have been martyrs since AD 70, but, that is simply not the point. The point is, when does the Bible say the martyrs were vindicated? The point is that Jesus, Paul, Peter and John are all emphatic in positing the resurrection and vindication at the end of the Old Covenant age in AD 70.
Frost and Denham have totally ignored the Biblical testimony.
To posit the resurrection, the coming of Christ for his wedding, and a yet future, eschatological vindication of the martyrs flies in the face of each man’s view of Babylon. If – since – in each man’s view, Babylon has fallen, we are in the eternal, unending state. And that means that- to reiterate our point- there is no future Day of the Lord. There is not another Babylon. There is not another “end time” or “last day,” or “last hour.”
The eschatological, last days measure of sin and suffering was filled up in the first century, just as Jesus said. From the blood of righteous Abel onward, the faithful who cried out day and night for vindication were finally vindicated and rewarded at the resurrection. God did not start another eschatological countdown, begin filling more cups of sin and suffering. The reward that He had prepared “from the foundation of the world” was now entered into by the martyrs– and is entered in now by those of faith. There is no more waiting “under the altar” for another number of the saints to suffer the martyrs death. Rather “Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on. Yea, says the Spirit, they shall rest from their labors.”