Email Exchanges

Email Exchange: More on the Old Covenant

Mickey, I will put my thoughts below your’s in the appropriate places. See my Blue, again
Good to hear from you again.
For His Truth, and in His Grace,
Don K. Preston
—– Original Message —–
From: Mickey
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 2:12 PM
Subject: Re: Rightly Dividing The Word Of Truth–Is Mathew Mark Luke And John Describing Jesus B4 The Cross New Testament?
Hi Don
Thanks For Your ReplySmile emoticon
Below is My Response back to You. Please use King James Version on these.
 
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 9:49 AM
Subject: Re: Rightly Dividing The Word Of Truth–Is Mathew Mark Luke And John Describing Jesus B4 The Cross New Testament?
Brother Skidmore, thank you for submitting the queries below. These are good important issues that have a direct impact on our understanding of what we call the New Testament. See my comments below in the appropriate places.
For His Truth, and in His Grace,
Don K. Preston
—– Original Message —–
Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 8:30 AM
Subject: Rightly Dividing The Word Of Truth–Is Mathew Mark Luke And John Describing Jesus B4 The Cross New Testament?

Brethren, a misunderstanding of the Old Testament age and doctrine of the law of Moses in the four books of
Matthew, Mark, Luke and John — before the cross — is the basic cause of all brotherhood misinterpretation,
division and doctrinal confusion today.
Response: This is undoubtedly true to a great extent. The old axiom, “a text out of context is a pretext,” is certainly true. What has happened, and continues to happen, is that many Bible students fail to recognize that Jesus was a prophet of Israel, for Israel, and he came to keep Torah, (“I did not come to destroy, but to fulfill”), and to show its true meaning. So what we have in the “gospels” is Jesus as an authoritative “rabbi” if I may use the term, so often saying, “you have heard it said, but I say to you…”. Jesus was explaining the true meaning of Torah. He was not necessarily, especially in these types of passages, giving the New Covenant message! He was explaining what Torah truly meant, the meaning they had ignored or perverted! 
In a sincere effort to restore unity and save the church from error, would you please consider and answer the following three questions:
1. When did the authority and jursidiction of the Old Testament “end”?
Response: This is a wide ranging question– and answer. I will give as brief explanation as I can.
Torah did not end at the Cross– and it did not end at Pentecost. Those texts that are normally appealed to in support of the Law passing at the Cross do not support this view. When examined closely they tell us that those coming into Christ were dying to the Law.
Torah was still present and binding on the Jews– outside of Christ– until AD 70.
Torah had not yet past away when Hebrews was written– Hebrews 8:13; 12:25-28).
Those who were coming into Christ were dying to Torah (Romans 7:4-14), but, it was not Torah that had died. There is a huge difference between dying to Christ and the Law passing!
Torah could not pass until it was all, not part, not most, but ALL, fulfilled (Matthew 5:17-18)– and that occurred in AD 70 (Luke 21:22).
The period between Christ’s incarnation and his parousia in AD 70 was the transitional period between the New Covenant and the Old  Paul was very emphatic that his ministry was for the purpose of bringing that Covenanal transformation to reality. Torah was in the process of passing– “we are being transformed from glory to glory” through the Spirit and Paul’s ministry– “wherefore, seeing we have received this ministry…” (2 Corinthians 3:13-4:1f). So, it is patently clear that Torah had not passed at the Cross or Pentecost.
The role of the Spirit in covenantal transformation cannot be over-emphasized. According to the OT prophecies, it would be through the Spirit in the last days, that Israel’s promises– which included the promise of the New Covenant– were to be fulfilled. Now,
since the Spirit was not given to the apostles to begin the revelatory process until Pentecost, and…
since it is patently clear that the New Covenant was not fully revealed on Pentecost, and…
since it is clear that the Old Covenant was still in the process of being fulfilled during that period, then…
this amounts to virtually prima facie evidence / demonstration that the Old Covenant did not pass at Pentecost, but, as the texts cited demonstrate, was in the process of growing old and was “nigh unto passing away.”
The gospel which included the impending end of Torah and the Old Covenant world, had to be preached into all the world– to the Jew first– before the Old could be swept away, and the New fully set in place. This was an expression of God’s longsuffering and grace.
1. My reply– The Law of Moses ended at the Cross. Colossians 2:13-14.
Response: This is a misunderstanding of the Greek of the text. I once believed what you are saying, but the Greek will not support it. The meaning is that the obligation to the Law was removed by those coming into the power of the cross. It i
s a mistake to see this as saying that that Law itself passed.
Mickey says— Go read 1 Corinthians 3:6-11 Verse 7 Clearly States Law Of Moses is a Ministry of Death, Verse 11 Clearly States Law of Moses is Gone. Verses 13-15 are talking about Ignorant Jews who still believed the Law Of Moses was not Gone.
Response: I assume that you mean 2  Corinthians 3.
Once again, this fails to consider the proper translation of the Greek text. In the Greek text, the verbs in v. 11f are all present tense, to speak of the fact that the Law was, at that time, passing away. There is no past tense in the Greek of these verses! The Law had not already passed. The KJV is simply a wrong translation of the Greek.
You ignored what I stated about the work of the Spirit and Covenant Transformation through the ministry of Paul. This is a critical issue, and cannot be properly ignored.
You ignored the present tense verbals of v. 16-18 that the Covenant Transformation was on-going when Paul wrote.
You ignored Hebrews 8:13 that emphatically says that the Old Covenant was “nigh unto passing away.” You ignored Hebrews 12:25f which speaks of the removing of that Old Covenant world when Hebrews was written.
Paul was not simply speaking of ignorant Jews who still believed that the Law was not gone. Let me emphasize again that in the Greek– not the KJV– but in the Greek of the text, it speak of the passing of the Law as a present tense reality. It was not past tense, but present. We must honor these Greek tenses!
Mickey says— Galatians 2:16 Galatians 3:10-12 Verse 12 Clearly Sais The Law Of Moses is not of New Covenant Faith. Galatians 5:1-4 is Very Clear about this.
Response— I have not stated, nor do I believe that the Law of Moses was the New Covenant of Faith. Not sure why you emphasized this to me.  (?)
Mickey says— Romans 7:4-6 is quite Clear Israel was Dead to the Law Of Moses by Jesus Death on the Cross. Notice it Sais We are Married to Another Jesus Who Rose from the Dead.
Response— No, Romans 7 does not say that Israel was dead to the Law. It says that those who had entered Christ by baptism (Romans 6), had entered into his death, and it was through his death that they had died to the Law. There is a huge, critical difference between those who died to the Law, and the Law actually passing! Paul is speaking to and about Jewish Christians who had died to the Law. He did not say that the Law had died. Please read this again, very carefully.
An illustration may help: in the early 90s and before, eastern Germans tried frantically to escape from East Germany. Those who were successful died to the law of east Berlin. The Law of east Berlin did not die when indviduals managed to escape to west Berlin!
However, in 1990 (?) the Berlin Wall came crumbling down! The communist government ended. The Law of East Berlin then died!
So, there is a huge, critical difference between what the Bible says about dying to the Law, and the Law itself passing away. Individuals died to the Law when the entered Christ. The Law itself passed when it was all fulfilled– Luke 21:22.
Mickey says— Ephesians 4:3-6 If there is only One Faith, how can You Possibly have two going at the same Time?? The Law of Moses and New Covenant?
Response— In the sovereignty of God there is no problem with having two laws in effect at the same time.
Do you not believe that the Gentiles were under a different law from Torah, all the while Torah was in effect? Clearly, there were two laws in effect!
Second, in Acts 15, and 21, the leaders of the church laid down one “law” for Jewish Christians and one “law” for Gentiles. When they instructed Paul to “keep the Law” they emphatically said, “The Gentiles have no part in this!” See especially Acts 15:19f; 21:24-25).
Mickey says—In Acts 2:38 The Old Testament Jews were Told what do to Be Saved by New Covenant Obedience. No the Whole New Covenant was not Revealed there, because it was not in written Form, they were given the Gifts of the Spirit to guide them into all New Covenant Truth afterwards as time went on and More and More New Covenant Truth was being Revealed. In Mark 16:15-16 it is Critical we understand this time period which I will Answer in second question. Jesus told Israel here to go Preach the New Testament Gospel to all the World. Israel of Coarse Preached this New Covenant Gospel to The Jews First then Proceeded to go to the Gentiles in Acts 10. Read Acts 3:19 Please use King James here sais Clearly To Repent and Be Converted. Converted from What? The Law Of Moses of Coarse. Don it makes no sense at all to say the Law Of Moses did not end at the Cross, when Scriptures Declare it Most Assuredly did. Please Explain Acts 15:5-11. King James Version
Response: Clearly, the gospel call did go the Jews first. But, it was not the message that Torah had already been done away with. It was the message that the Old Covenant world was about to pass away!
Note again Jesus’ words “Do not think that I am come to destroy the Law. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For verily I say to you, until heaven and earth passes, not one jot or one tittle shall pass from the Law until it is all fufilled” (Matthew 5:17-18). Now, let’s take a look at this in light of one of the texts that you appeal to– Acts 3.
Notice that Peter said the heavens must receive (Jesus) “until the restoration of all things foretold by Moses and the prophets…yea, all of the prophets from Samuel forward have spoken of these days…”
Notice that Peter was anticipating the fulfillment of the Old Testament!
Here is the argument then, and I will ask that you please answer this directly:
Not one jot or tittle of the Old Covenant could pass until it was all (not just some, part or most, but ALL), fulfilled (Jesus).
But Peter, in Acts 3 was still anticipating the fulfillment of the Old Covenant.
Therefore, the Old Covenant had not passed in Acts 3.
Remember also that I offered the following in regard to Luke 21:22– which you ignored.
Torah could not pass until it was all, not part, not most, but ALL, fulfilled (Matthew 5:17-18)– and that occurred in AD 70 (Luke 21:22).
These are the words of Jesus about when “all things written”  i.e. the Torah would be fulfilled.
Here is my argument, again, and I ask that you please address it:
Not one jot or tittle of the Old Covenant could pass until it was all (not just some, part or most, but ALL), fulfilled (Jesus).
Jesus said that all things written would be fulfilled in the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70 (Luke 21:22).
Therefore, the Old Covenant did not pass until it was all fulfilled at the time of the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70.
Acts 15 deals with the issue of whether Gentiles were to keep the Law. It was not a question of whether Jews were still under Torah!
Incidentally, I am not bound to or by the King James. Now, I still use it extensively, but, I do my best to base my conclusions on the majority
of translations in harmony with the Greek text. I personally like the New King James, as it corrects many of the translational errors of the KJV.
2. Was the time between the “end” of the Old and “beginning” of the New Testament the fifty days between
the cross and the day of Pentecost, or the 450 years between the time of Malachi and Matthew?
Response: We are only given two choices here, and both are wrong in my estimation. While the gospel began to be proclaimed in Acts 2, the system and covenant was not fully delivered and confirmed at that point. The Old had not yet passed away. This is why Peter said “Save yourselves from this untoward generation.” The climactic, consummative catastrophe that would bring the Old Covenant world to its end was not Pentecost, it was coming however, in that generation. This was the message of John the Immerser as Elijah, who was to call Israel to obedience to Torah before the Great Day of the Lord (Malachi 3-4).
The “time of the end” therefore, was the period between the appearing of John the Immerser, who proclaimed “the wrath about to come,” and the fulfillment of his prediction in AD 70.
2. Mickey says—My response. Yes the Time Period Between the Law Of Moses and The New Covenant was the Fifty Day Period when NO COVENANT WAS IN FORCE. No one at that time was Saved, because no Covenant was in Force. No Salvation Without Covenant. Read those Passages in that Time Period and You will Find no Salvation Passages. Jesus is with His Apostles 40 Days Teaching ALL NEW COVENANT DOCTRINE.
Response– You are basing this claim on the false assumption that the Law passed at the Cross. I have demonstrated that this is false. Please, look at the two syllogistic arguments just above, as well as the arguments I have made in light of the Greek text.
The fact that during that 40 days Jesus was instructing his disciples in the New Covenant does not demand that the Old Covenant had passed. In fact, Jesus was instructing them that the fulfillment of the Old Covenant promises were about to be completed through their ministry. They were to go to Israel, to call Israel into her promised New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:29f). It was Israel’s promises that are being fulfilled throughout the book of Acts and the epistles. God had not cast off Israel at the Cross (Romans 11:1f). Israel’s salvation was yet future, and to be perfected at Christ’s coming (Romans 11:25-27).
Mickey says—Acts 1:1-3 Jesus Told Israel in John 14:1-3 Not to Let There Heart’s Be Troubled. Why? Here Jesus is NOT TALKING About HEAVEN. He is Talking about The New Testament Kingdom. Jesus talking about His Father’s House Referring to The Church.  Read 1 Timothy 3:15 The Mansions are Christians because We are The Temple Of God.
Response– Some interesting thoughts that I can, to a certain extent, agree with. I do not see John 14 speaking about removing the church from the earth at the so-called end of time. This is about the establishment of the New Covenant Temple– but don’t forget that this was an Old Covenant promises made to Israel (Ezekiel 37:26). John 14 is dealing with God dwelling with man, just as Revelation 21:3f says “The tabernacle of God is with men.” It has nothing to do with an end of time, or destruction of earth. It has to do with the removal of the Old Covenant temple (dwelling place of God), and the establishment of the New Covenant Temple of God, Christ dwelling in our hearts through faith.
The Old Covenant temple had not yet been done away with, and the New Covenant temple was not yet completed when the epistles were written. However, the New Covenant Temple was “under construction” and was to be anointed at the parousia of Christ (Ephesians 2:19; 4:13f).
The Jews were about to Loose there (sic, dkp), Old Testament Kingdom Salvation Mathew 21:43 When That was Old Covenant Kingdom Was Taken From Israel After Jesus Death, they to Would be Lost like the Gentiles.
Response– The kingdom was not taken from the Jews at the Cross. The kingdom would be taken from them when, and only when, they rejected the offer of the kingdom– but when the faithful remnant had entered in.
The kingdom was taken from Israel when the king came and utterly destroyed the wicked servants (Matthew 21:40).
The kingdom was taken from Israel– and rebellious Israel cast out– for persecuting the children of promise (Galatians 4:22). If you say that Israel was cast out at the Cross, this means that Israel persecuted the children of promise, i.e. Christians!!– before the Cross and Pentecost. This is chronologically impossible.
Thus in acts 2:38 lost Old Covenant Jews being Taught how to Be Saved in The NEW TESTAMENT AGE. Go back to John 14:4-6 Here Many Brethren Goof up not Rightly Dividing God’s Word by The Covenants. In Verse 6 Jesus Jesus Telling Thomas an Old Covenant Jew that He Jesus Was The Way Under The Law Of Moses, The Truth Under The Law Of Moses, The Way Of Life Under The Law Of Moses. Jesus was the Way back To Heaven then by Old Covenant Faith Period. Winking smile emoticon
3. When did the New Testament age and revelation of New Covenant doctrine begin?
Response: There was a transitional period of time. Matthew tells us that the Law and the prophets were until John. John did not terminate Torah, but, instituted the last days period of time in which fulfillment of Torah was to occur (The time is fulfilled, the Kingdom of heaven has drawn near” Mark 1:15– and Matthew 3:2– John and Jesus both knew the predicted last days had arrived.)
John did not preach the New Covenant. He was focused, just as Malachi had predicted, on calling Israel to observance of Torah. This demands that his prediction of the Great Day of the Lord must likewise be kept within the confines of Torah, and Torah wrath provisions if they did not heed his call. This is precisely what happened of course.
So, while Jesus gave New Covenant instructions from time to time during his ministry, he was not, as I see it, providing full revelation of the gospel. I am not by any means denying that he revealed a good deal of the gospel message– see Luke 24; Acts 1). I am simply saying that this fell to the apostles, inspired by the Spirit (John 14-16), to fully reveal the New Covenant message. This began on Pentecost, continued in the last days period, and was finished in the first century before the fall of Jerusalem. This was in fulfillment of Daniel 9:24f. (You might see my book Seal Up Vision and Prophecy for a fuller discussion and vindication of this).
So, Torah fully ended in AD 70 because just as Jesus predicted, that is when it was all fulfilled. And, the New Covenant that had been being revealed and conf
irmed was not fully delivered and fully confirmed. This is when the “age to come” the Messianic Kingdom, was fully in place, perfected, manifested and vindicated.
3. Mickey says— Revelation of New Covenant began on the Day Of Pentecost Acts Chapter 2.
Response: Well, I naturally agree with this to a point. However, as you admit, the New Covenant was not yet completed. It was not fully revealed. And, as I have proven, the Old had not yet passed, because it was not yet fulfilled.
 Clearly. John 14-16 Jesus Preparing Jews for the End Of the Old Covenant. telling them to abide in Jesus Old Covenant Commands  John 14:1-14 Jesus was the Vine Israel were the Natural Old Covenant Branches then. Romans 11:13-24. It is Critical Our Brethren Understand there is NO NEW TESTAMENT AT ALL in MATHEW-JOHN Describing Jesus B4 the Cross, Absolutely None. There were Old Testament Prophesies Such as John 3:3-6 Jesus told Nicodemus that His Fleshly Old Covenant Kingdom Birth will Be No Good in the New Testament Age. He had to Be Born again of Water Baptism and Spiritually Converted From The Law Of Moses to The New Testament. Nicodemus Had no Clue at that Time what Jesus Meant. That was Not New Testament, but Old Covenant Short Range Prophesy Mathew 26:26-28 another Old Testament Short Range Prophesy. How could Jesus Institute The Lords Supper Here if They are still Keeping the Passover? Jesus has not Died?
Response– I will only address one small aspect of all of this.
A.) You ask how Jesus could institute the Supper, since he had not yet died. Well, God instituted the Passover before Israel was delivered from bondage, yet, the Passover was a memoral of deliverance from Egypt!
B.) If the command to be “born again” was Old Covenant, and not New Covenant, then since you say that the Old Covenant was done away at the Cross, then this means that the command to be born again passed at the Cross. This is unavoidable. You cannot affirm that John 3 was in no way whatsoever a part of the New Covenant, without thereby logically demanding that the command to be born again passed at the Cross!
To maintain that John 3 was a “short range prophecy” does not help. If the Old Covenant passed at the Cross then of necessity, based on Matthew 5:17-18– all of the Old Testament, including any and all “short range prophecies” of the OT were fulfilled by the time of the Cross!
Remember: Jesus said none of the Old Law could pass until it was ALL FULFILLED! You say that the Old Testament was removed at the Cross. Therefore, this demands that the short range prophecy– (but remember that John 3 is a command)- was fulfilled and past at the Cross.
This flies in the face of Romans 6, Colossians 2, James 1; 1 Peter 2-3, etc. where those coming into Christ were being “born again.”  And note that James and 1 Peter are specifically addressed to the twelve tribes, and the diaspora. They were in the process of being born again. But, per your position this was an Old Covenant command, therefore, the Old Covenant command in regard to the New Birth was still valid when James and Peter were written!
Let me kindly say that you have invalidated your own argument.
Where is the Word Institute as our Traditional Brethren Claim? What did Jesus say about His Doctrine in John 7:16 Verses what we are to do today 2 John 9-11 If anyone tries to Follow Jesus in Mathew-John Describing Him B4 the Cross They will fall from Grace Period. Galatians 5:4 Mathew 5:17-18 Mathew 7:12 No Exceptions. Forget that Ignorant Misplaced Title Page put in Our Bibles put in Our Bibles by the Corrupt Roman Catholic Church in the Year of 1486. This is Why Dan and Others of us are trying Hard to wake our Brethren Up on this Heaven and Hell Issue. Mathew 18:15-17 This again is not New Testament. This is Talking about Jewish Brethren Under The Law. Acts 7:37-38 Please Check this info out Don.
Response: I will not address any of this, as I have responded already in my discussion of the passing of the Law.
God Bless us Both in this Most Critical Bible Study.
Response: Amen!!
Mickey Smile emoticon
This is how I see it. Hope it helps!
Don K. Preston
President Preterist Research Institute
Answering Christianity’s Greatest Challenge
Dialogue When Possible
Debate When Necessary
At All Times Charity

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