Written Debates

B08 (Dobbs-V-Preston) 4th Affirmative by Don Preston

DOBBS-V-PRESTON WRITTEN DEBATE
DON K. PRESTON’S FOURTH AFFIRMATIVE
Submitted 3-29-06

    
Buster’s desperation is showing. He knows that if 2 Thessalonians 1 is A.D. 70,  that this falsifies his posit on 2 Peter 3. But, he simply claims, with no exegesis, Peter predicts a future event.

In spite of Dobbs’ protestations, the facts remain:
Paul wrote to living Christians, being persecuted.
They were being persecuted by the Jews, as foretold by Jesus.
Paul said those “being troubled” would receive relief from that tribulation, “when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven.” The Thessalonians had to be alive, under tribulation, in order to receive relief from tribulation, at the parousia.
Their Jewish persecutors would receive what they were giving the Thessalonians.
At Christ’s A.D. 70 coming, the Jews did become the persecuted. Their organized persecution was broken.

Unbelievably, Dobbs claims: “Those who afflicted believers in Thessalonica were not afflicted in the first century – not even at the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70.”
This would mean:
The Jews were persecuting the Thessalonians.
But the Jewish persecutors of the Thessalonians were not afflicted in the first century (Dobbs).
Therefore, the Jews were not afflicted in the first century!!

Upon whom then, did the Great Tribulation (thlipsis, Mt. 24:21) come, and why?

Dobbs knows that Israel was afflicted for persecuting the saints, at Christ’s coming, in A.D. 70!

Jesus said “all the righteous blood shed on the earth” would be avenged at his A.D. 70 judgment of Israel (Mt. 23:33-36).
The Jews were persecuting the Thessalonians.
Paul said that the Jewish persecutors were to be judged at Christ’s coming.
Therefore, the Jewish persecutors of the Thessalonians, those who shed “all the righteous blood shed on the earth” would be judged at Christ’s coming in judgment in A.D. 70.

Dobbs asks for proof that 2 Thess. 1:9 quotes the LXX of Isaiah 2.

Virtually all critical sources agree on this.

Further, Dobbs knows that Isaiah foretold the last days. Thus, Isaiah 2:9f is the prophecy of the last days parousia. There is no 2700 year gap between vss. 2-4 and verses following.

Isaiah, and Paul in Thessalonians, foretold last days events.
Isaiah, and Paul in Thessalonians,  foretold the judgment of Israel in the last days.
Isaiah, and Paul in Thessalonians, foretold the judgment of Israel, at the Day of the Lord, for shedding innocent blood.
Isaiah, and Paul, citing Isaiah in Thessalonians, said Israel would be cast from the presence of the Lord at the Day of the Lord, for shedding innocent blood.

This is not mere similarity. The time, people, theme, and words are the same. This is identicality.

Only one people had ever dwelt in the presence of the Lord, i.e. Old Covenant Israel.
Isaiah 2-4 foretold the casting out of Israel “from the presence of the Lord” for shedding innocent blood (Isaiah 2:9, 19f; 4:1-4).
2 Thessalonians 1 foretold the casting out of the Jewish persecutors of the saints, “from the presence of the Lord.”
Jesus said Israel would be judged for killing the saints, at his A.D. 70 parousia.
Therefore, Israel was cast out “from the presence of the Lord” at the  A.D. 70 parousia.

Paul said those “who do not obey the gospel” would be cast out at Christ’s parousia. Peter said: “The time (to kairos) has come for the judgment (to krino) to begin, and if it begins with us first, what shall the end be of those who do not obey the gospel?” (1 Peter 4:17).

Peter used the definite article with kairos. Kairos means appointed time. Same with “the judgment.” Thus, “the appointed time for the judgment has arrived.”

Paul said those not obeying the gospel, the Jewish persecutors of the Thessalonians’, would be judged at Christ’s parousia
Peter said the appointed time had come to judge those who did not obey the gospel.
Therefore, the appointed time had come for the (Thessalonian) judgment parousia of Christ!

Peter said the appointed time for the judgment of those who had not obeyed the gospel had arrived. He said Christ was, “ready (hetoimos), to judge the living and the dead” (v. 5); “the end of all things has drawn near” (eggiken, perfect tense, v. 7).

Was Peter wrong to say the time had arrived (drawn near), for the appointed time (Acts 17:30-31), for the judgment?

Dobbs believes Peter was wrong! The “appointed time for the judgment” had not arrived!

Dobbs is wrong.

Bro. Dobbs, upon whom did the Great Tribulation (thlipsis, Mt. 24:21) come, and why?

Did Jesus come in judgment of Israel, for persecuting the saints, in A.D. 70?

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *