DOBBS-V-PRESTON WRITTEN DEBATE
DON K. PRESTON’S THIRD AFFIRMATIVE
SUBMITTED 3-15-06
Dobbs redefines thlipsis, claiming: Asome in Thessalonica who afflicted believers died before A. D. 70. Yet, Paul wrote, >it is righteous thing with God to recompense affliction (thlipsis) to them that afflict (thlibousin) you.’Since these afflicters did not receive affliction in this life, the affliction had to come after this life or not at all."
Dobbs ignores the fact that it was the Jews persecuting the church.
The Jewish persecutors would receive what they were giving the Thessalonians. Dobbs says the persecutors were to receive hell. Were the Jewish persecutors sending the Thessalonians to hell?
Dobbs radically redefines thlipsis in the same verse.
Dobbs ignores the text, "to those who are troubling you." The troublers had to be alive at the parousia. If they were not alive, they were not troubling the Thessalonians. Paul didn’t say, "to give to those who troubled you." Dobbs distorts the text.
Dobbs ignores the fact that the persecuted, the persecutors, and the impending judgment in 2 Thessalonians 1 is the same as 1 Thessalonians 2:15f, and the connection with Matthew 23.
Dobbs says that A.D. 70 did not end persecution. Wrong. The persecuting Jews did become the persecutedBjust as Paul promised. Their systematic persecution of the church was broken.
Dobbs, violating the text, makes the Thessalonian=s persecutors Roman, not Jewish.
Dobbs claims, "Christian receives relief from persecution upon his physical death." This is not what Paul promised. Paul promised the Thessalonians that their relief would come, "when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven." Dobb’s obfuscation cannot change the divine words.
Dobbs complains that I do not follow his comments on 2 Peter 3. He is the negative, bound to follow me. 2 Peter 3 (and Matthew 24-25) = 2 Thessalonians 1. So, to prove my point on 2 Thessalonians 1 falsifies Dobbs on other texts. I may, or may not, address 2 Peter affirmatively, but my book, The Elements Shall Melt With Fervent Heat, proves my case definitively.
More affirmative.
Paul’s resurrection doctrine, thus, 2 Thessalonians 1, was Athe hope of Israel" (Acts 26:6f), from the Old Covenant (Acts 24:14ff).
2 Thessalonians 1:9 is a direct quotation of the LXX of Isaiah 2:10, 19. Israel would be punished, Afrom the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power."
Isaiah foretold the last days (2:2), coming of Jehovah (2:9-11; 19-21). The "Day" would be a time of famine (3:1f), and warfare when Israel’s men would fall by the sword (3:25-26). The "Branch," Messiah, would come, and the blood guilt of Jerusalem would be removed "by the spirit of fire and the spirit of judgment" (4:1-4).
In the last days parousia of Isaiah 2-4 Israel would be judged for shedding innocent blood, and would be cast, "from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power" (LXX, Isaiah 2:10, 19).
In the last days parousia of 2 Thessalonians 1, Israel would judged for shedding innocent blood, and would be cast, "from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power" (1 Thessalonians 2:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 1:4-10).
The last days judgment of Israel for shedding innocent blood was at Christ’s coming in A.D. 70 (Matthew 23:29-39).
Therefore, the last days fulfillment of 2 Thessalonians 1, Christ’s ultimate coming, was in the judgment of Israel in A.D. 70.
In Luke 23:28-31 Jesus applied Isaiah 2:10a, 19a, to the impending judgment of Jerusalem for her guilt in killing him (and of course his saints, Matthew 23:29f).
Paul, quotes Isaiah 2:10b, 19b, to predict the judgment of the Jewish persecutors of the Thessalonians.
2 Thessalonians 1 is the prediction of the final coming of the Lord.
Unless Paul applied Isaiah 2:9f, 19f radically differently than Jesus, then since Jesus applied Isaiah 2:9, 19 to the A.D. 70 parousia, this demands that 2 Thessalonians 1 predicted the A.D. 70 parousia.
Only one people had ever dwelt in the presence of the Lord, i.e. Old Covenant Israel.
Isaiah 2-4 foretold the casting out of Israel "from the presence of the Lord" for shedding innocent blood (Isaiah 2:9, 19f; 4:1-4).
2 Thessalonians 1 foretold the casting out of the Jewish persecutors of the saints, "from the presence of the Lord."
Jesus said Israel would be judged for killing the saints, at his A.D. 70 parousia.
Therefore, Israel was cast out "from the presence of the Lord" at the ultimate coming of the Lord in A.D. 70.
My proposition stands proven, the ultimate coming of Christ was the A. D. 70 judgment of Israel.