QUESTIONS SUBMITTED BY DON K. PRESTON TO H. A. “BUSTER” DOBBS
AND H. A. “BUSTER” DOBBS’ ANSWERS
Preston’s Question #1:
Are your, (Buster Dobbs’), eschatological hopes, i.e. the hope of the Second (i.e. the ultimate) coming of Christ, judgment, resurrection, based upon, and grounded in, the yet future fulfillment of the Old Testament promises / prophecies made to Old Covenant Israel?
Dobbs’ Answer to Question # 1:
The question is somewhat difficult to follow, mainly because it is too wordy. I will pare it down to its essentials so that those of us who do not speak Jabberwocky can understand it.
There are two i.e.’s in the question. Since “i.e.” means “that is to say,” we can take out the i.e.’s and leave the explanation, without changing the meaning of the question. We can also remove the personal reference, which is a tad condescending; we should also remove superfluous words that cloud the meaning of the question. The only reference I could find to the “Old Covenant” in the 8 translations I consulted is in 2 Cor 3:14, where the writer is speaking of the covenant God made with Israel at Sinai. I conclude that the question is about the covenant that God made with Israel “in the day he took them by the hand to lead them forth out of the land of Egypt,” and, consequently, have made that adjustment.
The corrected question reads: “Is your hope of the ultimate coming of Christ based upon unfulfilled promises and prophecies made to Israel in the Sinai covenant?
The answer to the clarified question is no, seeing that there were no promises and prophecies about the final coming of Christ from heaven to earth in the “Old Covenant” of Israel. The Old Testament conceals Christ; the New Testament reveals Christ.
Paul wrote in Eph 3:1-9:[Begin quote] 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus in behalf of you Gentiles, —
2 if so be that ye have heard of the dispensation of that grace of God which was given me to you-ward;
3 how that by revelation was made known unto me the mystery, as I wrote before in few words,
4 whereby, when ye read, ye can perceive my understanding in the mystery of Christ;
5 which in other generation was not made known unto the sons of men, as it hath now been revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;
6 to wit, that the Gentiles are fellow-heirs, and fellow-members of the body, and fellow-partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,
7 whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of that grace of God which was given me according to the working of his power.
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, was this grace given, to preach unto the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 and to make all men see what is the dispensation of the mystery which for ages hath been hid in God who created all things” [End quote].
I emphasize certain points Paul made because they are relevant to answering the question:
1. Paul was “the prisoner of Christ on behalf of Gentiles” (v. 1)
2. A mystery had been revealed to him (v. 3)
3. His letter to the saints would show Paul’s understanding of this mystery (v. 4)
4. In past generations the mystery was not made known, but was now, for the first time, being revealed by Paul and other inspired writers (v. 5)
5. This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel (v. 6)
6. Paul was writing to the saved at Ephesus so that all men could understand the revealed mystery (v. 9)
“The promise in Christ” (v. 5) would include his ultimate return to destroy the world, bring final salvation to the redeemed, and reject those who “know not God” and “obey not the gospel of the Lord.” We know that this is yet future for the following reasons:
Peter wrote in 2 Peter 3:8-13:[Quote] 8 But forget not this one thing, beloved, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness; but is longsuffering to you-ward, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall be dissolved with fervent heat, and the earth and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing that these things are thus all to be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy living and godliness,
12 looking for and earnestly desiring the coming of the day of God, by reason of which the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 But, according to his promise, we look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness [Unquote].
I call attention to the fact that Peter is here discussing “his promise” (vv.9, 13), which makes this passage appropriate in giving an answer to a question about promises and prophesies concerning the final coming of Jesus.
Again, I highlight certain points in this passage:
1. The reference to one day being like a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day indicates that Peter did not know and would not presume to say when Jesus would make his final return from heaven to earth … it could be a short time, or it could be a long time (v. 8).
2. The final return of Jesus will be unheralded – like a thief (v. 10). Any coming of the Lord that has signs announcing that it is impending, is not the ultimate coming of Christ.
3. When Jesus does come back to earth for the last time, the heavens will pass away with a great noise (v. 10). Since the heaven of heavens, where God’s throne is, can never pass away, then Peter must be talking about the heaven where the birds fly, and the heaven where the stars shine – those heavens. Since the birds are still flying and the stars are still shinning, we can be sure that the passage does not refer to an event in the past.
4. At the ultimate return of Jesus the earth, its elements, and its works will “be burned up” (v. 10).
5. At the second literal coming of Jesus the earth, its elements and works will be dissolved (v. 11). “Dissolved” means to melt or do away with, and since the atmosphere around the earth, and the earth and its contents continue, we must conclude this has not happened … yet. It is still future.
Preston’s Question #2
Do you, Buster Dobbs, believe that the coming of Christ foretold in Matthew 13:38-43; Acts 1:9, 1 Corinthians 15:23-28, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 2 Thessalonians 1:7f, Revelation 14:14f 22:12, 20 is the same coming, i.e. the Second Coming of Christ, (i.e the ultimate) coming of Christ?
If you do not believe that any one, (or more), of these passages (Matthew 13:38-43; Acts 1:9, 1 Corinthians 15:23-28, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 2 Thessalonians 1:7f, Revelation 14:14f, 22:12, 20), predicts the Second (i.e. ultimate), coming of Christ, please identify that passage, or passages, (from the ones listed), and give your specific scriptural and contextual reasons why you d
o not believe that it, (or they), is a prediction of Christ’s Second (i.e. ultimate) Coming.
Dobbs’ Answer to Question #2
This is several questions. A single question would be, Do you believe that the coming of Christ foretold in Matthew 13:38-43 is the ultimate coming of Christ? If you cast each of the references into a concise question, you have 8 questions. So, please understand, this multiplies the questions. Instead of 10 questions, we have 18 questions. I do not complain but only explain.
To answer these questions, we must have an understanding of Bible teaching about the kingdom.
What The Bible Says About The Eternal Kingdom Of God.
The Kingdom of God is eternal because God is eternal – having neither “beginning of days nor end of life.”
There has never been a time when the Kingdom of God did not exist; there never will be a time when it does not exist.
Before God made the “heavens and the earth and all that in them is,” his kingdom existed. When the “stars of the heaven” fall “unto the earth, as a fig tree casteth her unripe figs when she is shaken of a great wind,” God’s Kingdom will continue to be.
To discuss, intelligently, kingdom matters, we must first recognize the various kingdoms:
1. The Eternal Kingdom of God
2. The earthly phases of the Eternal Kingdom of God
3. The realm over which Satan rules
4. The kingdoms (nations) of this world
5. The world is also called the kingdom (of God)
Eden was an earthly manifestation of the Kingdom of God. As long as man was dutiful, he lived in supreme happiness and peace. That paradise was lost. Man disobeyed his Maker. God drove sinful man out of Eden.
Rarely, an inspired writer or speaker calls the world the kingdom. God made it. It is his. He is sovereign, though his creature may refuse his rule. The noun “sovereignty” means “power, control, authority, dominance.” Still, in his infinite mercy and limitless wisdom, God allows man to have free agency. God is the monarch of the world, but makes concessions to humankind. God is a king who chooses to allow his subjects free range. He does this not because he must, but because he loves. His desire is to have man make correct decisions and receive rewards accordingly.
After man lost the garden of God, there was a dismal period of increasing wickedness. Sin, inevitably, brings disease and death.
When the darkness of rebellion filled the whole world, the great Noachian flood washed away the sordid mess. The Sovereign God expressed his holiness and his power. The destruction was an affirmation of his powerful word, and a reminder of his kingship (2 Pet 3:5-6). The world, “compacted out of water and amidst water,” sprang into existence “by the word of God,” and by that same word, it perished. It was done for the benefit of coming generations.
Next, we learn about Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph and his brothers, of the descent into Egypt and the coming of Moses.
You know that Abram “looked for a city that hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.”
Abram was expecting the Kingdom of God.
God said of Sarah, “Kings of peoples shall be of her” (Gen 17:6,16). God knew that kings would descend from this noble pair. This would include all the kings of Israel and Judah. Balaam refers to Jacob and Israel as a kingdom (Numbers 24:4-7)
You know of God’s Emancipation Proclamation, when He sent Moses to tell Pharaoh, “Let my people go.”
The mighty and uplifted arm of God brought the slaves out Egypt and into liberty. He freed the captives.
God gave the liberated people a law at Sinai. “If ye will obey my voice indeed and keep my covenant, then ye shall be mine own possession from among all peoples: for all the earth is mine: and ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation …” (Ex 19:5-6).
Israel, at the time of her beginning, was a kingdom of priests and a holy nation (another stage of the Kingdom of God).
In the Law of Moses, God gave instructions about the behavior of Israel’s kings (Deut 17:18, 20). The emphasis was upon knowing the will of God and doing it, because that is characteristic of the Kingdom of God.
Saul became king of Israel, but her true ruler was Jehovah. Samuel said to the people, “Come, and let us go to Gilgal, and renew the kingdom there” (1 Sam 11:14).
Renew the kingdom? Ah, yes, renew means to rebuild, or to return to something. God wanted the kingdom of Israel to be a phase of his undying Kingdom.
The Eternal Kingdom seeks an earthly manifestation.
David was Israel’s greatest king — a type of Messiah. David foreshadowed; Jesus fulfilled. David was the shadow; Jesus was the substance.
Christ sits on David’s throne (Luke 1:32-33; Isa 9:6-7; Acts 2:30-31).
David, in the Psalms, revealed things about the Kingdom of God. For instance:
“For the kingdom is Jehovah’s; and he is ruler over the nations” (Psa 22:28).
“Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever” (Psa 45:6).
“Jehovah hath established his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom is over all” (Psa 103:19).
“They [all thy works and all thy saints] shall speak of the glory of thy kingdom and talk of thy power” (Psa 145:11).
Jehovah makes “known to the sons of men his mighty acts, and the glory of the majesty of his kingdom” (Psa. 145:12).
“Thy kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and thy dominion endureth throughout all generations” (Psa 145:13).
1. God has an everlasting kingdom
2. God regarded the nation of Israel as an extension of His Kingdom
3. God’s Kingdom has glory and majesty
4. The Kingdom of God endures through all generations
The history of the house of Israel reveals good kings and bad kings. The good ones were always submissive to God and obeyed. The bad ones turned away from God and transgressed his word.
The kingdom of Israel waxed worse and worse (a slippery slope), until Babylonian might crushed it.
There was a restoration. The nation flourished, but continued to kill the prophets (symbolic of rejecting God’s message).
Daniel wrote about the kingdom, saying, (1) God would reject Israel and (2) a new phase of the everlasting Kingdom of Jehovah would appear. It would have unlimited territory. Its king would not be on earth, but in heaven (Dan 7:13-28).
Daniel said, Saints receive the kingdom, and Jesus confirmed it (Dan 7:18; Luke 12:32).
Daniel, looking into the future, spoke of civil kingdoms, and of a rock cut out of the mountain — a new aspect of the spiritual Kingdom of God. God’s kingdom would destroy the kingdoms of men (Dan 2:31-46), not by military might, but by holiness.
King Darius said, “[T]he God of Daniel … is the living God … and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed; and his dominion shall be even unto the end” (Dan 6:26).
Daniel saw in the night visions “one like unto a son of man” (Jesus) coming to the “ancient of Days (Jehovah)” and receiving a Kingdom that shall never be destroyed … “the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever” (Daniel 7:14-18).
The Kingdom in the New Testament
Prince Immanuel appears. His forerunner was John th
Many of the Jews were looking for the kingdom (Luke 19:11; Mark 15:43; Luke 2:25)
“And in those days cometh John the baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judea, saying, Repent ye; for the kingdom of heaven is at hand” (Matt 3:1-2; Mark 1:15).
Jesus and his disciples preached the same message (Matt 4:17; 10:7; Luke 8:1, 10).
John, Jesus, and the disciples preached the gospel of the kingdom (Matt 4:23; Luke 4:43; 8:1; Luke 9:2).
The headquarters of the Kingdom is heaven; Revelation 4 and 5 describe the heavenly kingdom.
The lamb, “standing as if it had been slain,” established a kingdom that included “men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation” (Rev 5:9). Jesus made them to be “unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon earth” (Rev 5:10).
The church is an earthly manifestation of the Kingdom of God, and fulfills Daniel 7:13-22.
Jesus said, “If I by the Spirit of God cast out demons, then the Kingdom of God is come upon you” (Matt 12:28). The power Jesus exhibited in the signs and wonders attending his service on earth proved the invisible, remote Kingdom of God had come near. “But if I by the finger of God cast out demons, then is the kingdom of God come upon you” (Luke 11:20), referring, of course, to the Eternal Kingdom of God.
The Kingdom Comes
The Kingdom of God, sometimes called Kingdom of Heaven, (these terms are used interchangeably in the New Testament, however “Kingdom of Heaven” is peculiar to Matthew) was announced as near, or at hand. Jesus said that it, the Kingdom, would come within the lifetime of the people who heard him teach.
“And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There are some here of them that stand by, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God come with power” (Mark 9:1, see also Matt 16:28…”the son of man coming in his Kingdom;” and Luke 9:27).
Mark records Jesus as saying “the kingdom of God [will] come with power.” The Lord is not speaking here of the Eternal Kingdom of God because it has always been. He speaks of another aspect of that ageless Kingdom – the earthly phase of the Eternal Kingdom. The promised power, and the earthly phase of the kingdom were to come at the same time. If we identify the time when the power came, we can know when this new earthly phase of the kingdom came.
In his final interview on earth with the apostles, Jesus said, “ye shall receive power, when the Holy Spirit is come upon you: and ye shall be my witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth” (Acts 1:8).
Jesus said the power would come when the Holy Spirit came upon the apostles.
Acts 2:1-4 records the coming of the Holy Spirit upon the apostles and therefore establishes the exact moment when the kingdom that had been “at hand” came into existence. The kingdom came at about 9 a.m. on Pentecost Sunday A.D. 30, in the city of Jerusalem, as the prophets had foretold.
The kingdom that Jesus promised became a reality. This was “the son of man coming in his kingdom.” We must make a clear distinction between the Kingdom of God that has existed through all time — lasting for all time without beginning or end — and the kingdom Jesus said would come in the first century generation with power. The former is the eternal kingdom of Almighty God, and later is an earthly phase, and extension, of God’s unending kingdom.
This is still another manifestation of the Eternal Kingdom – like Eden, or the world, or Israel. The indestructible, invisible Kingdom is the home base of deity. The “word of the kingdom” is critical to the existence of the kingdom (Matt 13:19).
Jesus explained that man’s spirit must be born of water to enter the Kingdom of God (John 3:5), making baptism, as an expression of faith and repentance, the door to the kingdom. To get in, you have to go through the door.
Obeying the word is to receive the kingdom; rejecting the word is rejecting the kingdom. Jesus taught his disciples to pray, “Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so on earth” (Matt 6:10). Uninterrupted obedience to the word of God brings the kingdom. “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven” (Matt 7:21).
Jesus taught, in parabolic form, that the kingdom is like:
- Good seed sown in the world (Matt 13:24; Luke 8:5-15)
- A grain of mustard seed (Matt 13:31; Luke 13:18f)
- Leaven in a lump (Matt 13:33; Luke 13:20-21)
- Buried treasure (Matt 13:44)
- A goodly pearl (Matt 13:45)
- A net cast into the sea (Matt 13:47)
- A householder who brings out of his treasure things new and old (Matt 13:52
- A king who made a reckoning with his servants (Matt 18:23)
- A householder hiring laborers (Matt 20:1)
- A marriage feast (Matt 22:2)
- Wise and foolish virgins (Matt 25:1)
- A nobleman giving money for his servants to invest (Luke 19:12ff)
The Kingdom of God:
- Belongs to those of child-like faith and trust (Luke 18:17)
- Is hard for the rich man to enter (Luke 18:25)
- It is within the believer – in the spirit (mind), sometimes called heart (Luke 17:21)
- It is realized in the invisible, eternal Kingdom of God (Luke 22:16-18)
- It comes not with observation (can’t see it) (John 18:36)
- The kingdom of Jesus “is not of this world” (John 18:36)
After his resurrection, Jesus spoke “the things concerning the kingdom of God” (Acts 1:3).
The apostles of Jesus misunderstood and supposed Jesus had come to “restore the kingdom to Israel” (Acts 1:6), but would know better when the Spirit came upon them.
Phillip preached “good tidings concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ” (Acts 8:12).
Paul and Barnabas told their converts “that through many tribulations we must enter into the kingdom of God” (Acts 14:22). These people were in the church, which is the body of Jesus, and therefore in a sense they were in the kingdom, seeing the kingdom and the church can be synonymous (Matt 16:18-19). Still, they had not yet entered the Eternal Kingdom. Flesh and blood cannot enter that kingdom (1 Cor 15:50). Flesh and blood can enter the earthly manifestation of the Eternal Kingdom (Col 1:13), but not the Eternal Kingdom itself. God translates mortals into “the kingdom of the son of his love,” but the mortal must become immortal and the corruptible become incorruptible to enter the Kingdom of God – the kingdom that has always existed and therefore has no beginning (1 Cor 15:50-54).
Only the washed – the holy and pure – can enter the Eternal Kingdom of the Almighty (1 Cor 6:9-10; Gal 5:21; Eph 5:5).
“The kingdom of God (church of Christ) is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit” (Rom 4:17). The kingdom is not in word (only) but (also) in power (1 Cor 4:20). It springs up from sown seed (word) (Luke 8:11-15), as that powerful message is confirmed by divine demonstrations (Heb 2:1-4; Mark 16:20).
We are called by the gospel to walk worthily of God and are called &ldqu
o;unto” his own (heavenly) kingdom and glory (1 Thess 2:12; 2 Thess 2:14; 2 Thess 1:5; 1 Tim 4:18).
Jesus sits with Jehovah on the Father’s throne and upholds all things by the word of his power, being also the head of the body, the church (earthly kingdom). The throne upon which Jesus and Jehovah sit is forever and ever (Heb 1:8)
Purified souls are in the kingdom on earth, awaiting promotion into the Eternal Kingdom. They are “receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken” (Heb 12:28). Upon entering that regal realm, they will be “souls made perfect,” fit for companionship with angels.
The saved are heirs of the kingdom. They anticipate “entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ” (James 2:5; 2 Pet 2:11). The redeemed are a kingdom and priests …” (Rev 1:6). Children of God partake with the apostles “in tribulation and kingdom and patience which are in Jesus” (Rev. 1:9). The redeemed are “unto our God a kingdom and priests, and they reign upon the earth” (Rev 5:10). The kingdoms of the world will some glad day “become the kingdom of our Lord” (Rev. 11:15). At the ultimate coming of Jesus Satan and his imps will be “cast down” (Rev 12:10). The day comes when “the throne of the beast; and his kingdom” are “darkened; and they [the evil of earth]” will gnaw “their tongues for pain, and” blaspheme “the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores; and they repented not of their works” (Rev 16:10-11).
Kingdoms of Men and Satan
There are also other kingdoms at work in the universe. We often read of the earthly kingdoms of men – Babel (Gen 10:10), Shion, and Og (Num 32:33), Babylon (Jer 27:8), Persia (2 Chron 36:20), Ahasuerus (Est 3:6), etc., Jeremiah refers to “all the kingdoms of the world” (Jer 25:26).
The Bible speaks of the kingdom of Satan, which is invisible and in the heart of the wicked. Satan is referred to as “the Prince of this world” (John 12:31). The devil is also called “the prince of the powers of the air” (Eph 2:2). Paul speaks of the “power of darkness” (Col 1:13). The word translated “power” means “authority, jurisdiction, rule or government.”
In addition, Satan controls many of the kingdoms of men. He showed Jesus the kingdoms of this world and offered to give them to him if Jesus would fall down and worship Satan (Matt 4:8-9).
The world is called the kingdom. In explaining the parable of the tares, Jesus said, “the field is the world” (Matt 13:38); he later spoke of gathering out of the kingdom (field, or world) the tares – all that offends. Jesus says the world is the kingdom.
To recapitulate (1) God has an Eternal kingdom, (2) he made the world intending that it should be an earthly phase of his kingdom, (3) the nation of Israel is also said to be the kingdom of God, and (4) Jesus came to remove Israel’s kingdom, and to inaugurate another earthly phase of the heavenly Kingdom of God.
Jesus announced that:
1. The kingdom of Israel, as an earthly extension of the Eternal Kingdom of God (Heaven), would be rejected and destroyed
2. A new earthly phase of the Eternal Kingdom of God (Heaven) would be established, and would also be known as the church (the called out people of God)
3. The day would come when the entire universe would be destroyed and reduced to nothingness (consequently the planet earth would be dissolved with fervent heat) bringing to an end another aspect of God’s Kingdom, which is the world (2 Pet 3:8-11)
4. At the time of the final removal of the created universe, the church (kingdom of God on earth) will be folded into the Eternal Kingdom (1 Cor 15:24).
There are several destructions of earthly kingdoms mentioned in the Bible. When we consider the abolishing of a kingdom, we must study the context to know to what kingdom the writer refers. The reference could be to Eden, the kingdom of Israel, the world and its contents, or Satan and his crew.
Jesus established his kingdom (church) so the world might have light. God is light (1 John 1:5). Jesus is the light of the world (John 1:9-10; 8:12; 9:5). The word of God is a lamp and a light (Psa 119:105).
Jesus’ disciples are to reflect his light (Matt 5:14). Saints “shine forth as lights in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation” (Phil 2:15). The light they bring is “the word of life” (Phil 2:16).
Each light is to be contagious and kindles other lights. Jesus calls men “out of darkness and into his marvelous light” (1 Pet 2:9).
The kingdom of Satan is a domain of darkness (Col 1:13). Men loved darkness and not light (John 3:19). Most kingdoms of men are darkness.
When the fullness of time came, God sent forth his son to be the light of the world. The world was in the dense blackness of darkness. Satan is “the prince of this world” (John 12:31, Eph 2:2). He holds dominion over much of the world.
Jesus brought light and ordains that his followers shine as lights in the midst of the darkness. The saved person is a point of light. Jesus wills that his disciples be multiplied millions of points of light. This makes the world glow. Our light is the teaching of Jesus.
Sad to say, Satan, though bound for a thousand years, comes out of his hole – his bottomless pit — and destroys the lights of God. Like the five foolish virgins, our lights are going out.
When the darkness is great and the lights are few that will be the day God has appointed to “judge the world in righteousness by the man whom he has ordained, whereof he hath given assurance unto all men in that he hath raised him from the dead.”
Jesus commissioned Paul “[T]o open their (Gentiles and Jews) eyes, that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive remission of sins and an inheritance among them that are sanctified by faith in me.”
There are several destructions of earthly kingdoms mentioned in the Bible. When we consider the abolishing of a kingdom, we must study the context to know to what kingdom the writer refers. The reference could be to Eden, the kingdom of Israel, the world and its contents, or Satan and his crew.
Brother Preston, in his question #2, requests that we comment on several passages, which we are happy to do. Here is a list of the verses Matthew 13:38-43; Acts 1:9, 1 Corinthians 15:23-28, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 2 Thessalonians 1:7f, Revelation 14:14f 22:12, 20. Brother Preston wants to know if the coming mentioned in these verses is the ultimate coming of Christ? Having given the background of the kingdoms, I will take up the verses one by one
The passage brother Preston asked about, which is an interpretation of the parable, reads:
37 “And he answered and said, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 and the field is the world; and the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;
39 and the enemy that sowed them is the devil: and the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered up and burned with fire; so shall it be in the end of the world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that cause stumbling, and them that do iniquity,
42 and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of t
heir Father. He that hath ears, let him hear.”
What brother Preston references is Jesus’ interpretation of the parable. The parable itself is in verses 24-30 of Matthew chapter 13.
The meaning of the parable is:
1. Jesus sowed the good seed (v. 37, see also Matt 13:1-8 and Matt 13:18-23). Notice the parable of the sower is in proximity to the parable of the tares – one helps to explain the other.
2. The world/kingdom is the field (the seed of truth is scattered throughout the whole world) (v. 38). When Jesus refers to “his kingdom” in verse 41, he is speaking of “the world,” verse 38. There is a sense in which the world is an extension of the Eternal Kingdom of God (Heaven).
3. The enemy is the devil (v. 39)
4. Burning the tares with fire is the end of the world (v. 40)
5. Angels of the son of Man shall root out of the kingdom (world) all things that cause stumbling and that do iniquity (v. 41)
6. Tares (all things that cause stumbling and that do iniquity) shall be cast into the furnace of fire and burned up, causing great sorrow on the part of the devil and his imps (v. 42; see also 2 Peter 3:8-13)
7. The righteous (wheat) will then shine forth as the sun in the Eternal Kingdom of God (v. 43)
This cannot possibly refer to the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 because iniquity and things that cause stumbling have not ceased – been burned up. It is easy to see that the world continues to have in it violence, corruption, deceitful teaching, and all manner of wickedness (just pick up most newspapers, listen to most radio stations, or watch most television programs). When the angels of God gather the tares and burn them, sin will cease on earth – and the earth itself will cease (See 2 Pet 3:8-11).
If anyone thinks that iniquity and false teaching has ceased, he is oblivious to current events and indisputable facts. Look around you … sin is rampant … violence is intense … misery abounds … all suffer and hurt … persecution continues … bombs, blood, mangled bodies continue to be unambiguous and plain. No, angels have not yet gathered out the tares.
If anyone thinks we live in a world that is devoid of iniquity and stumbling, he is blind indeed. A. D. 70 is past and gone and wickedness and false prophets continue, therefore the events described in Matt 13:37-43 are yet future.
I must assume that friend Preston meant Acts 1:9-11, which reads:[Begin quote] 9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they were looking stedfastly into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 who also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye looking into heaven? this Jesus, who was received up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye beheld him going into heaven [End quote]/
It is obvious that the ascension of Jesus was not the second, final, ultimate coming of Jesus. There must be some time interval between the time of his “going” into heaven and the time of his “returning” from heaven. The one does not involve the other. He went away into heaven … he will come again in the same way he left … that is visible, evident … every eye shall see him and every tongue shall confess him to be Lord and Christ (Rev 1:7; Phil 2:1-11).
If your question is, Has this happened, the obvious answer is no – emphatically no!
1 Corinthians 15:23-27
The passage under consideration reads:[Begin quote] 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christ’s, at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all his enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be abolished is death [End quote].
The question is – is this the ultimate coming of Jesus?
Verse 23 refers to the resurrection of Jesus, and to the general resurrection of all the dead. The resurrection of Jesus occurred in the first century of the Christian age, and the general resurrection will take place when Jesus makes his ultimate return to earth (John 5:28-29). After this – after the resurrection of Jesus, his ultimate return, and the general resurrection, Paul says “then cometh the end” (v. 24); it involves the delivering up of the kingdom to Jehovah, abolishing all rule and authority; and ending death.
Well, is death no more? Is physical death no more? Is spiritual death no more? When did death die? The dread of death is removed and in this sense, Jesus gained a victory over and abolished death, but people still die a physical death and their dead-bodies are buried or burned, and people continue to sin and become spiritually dead in their trespasses. The fact of death has not yet ended.
Jesus abolished death (2 Tim 1:10), and brought life and immorality to light through the gospel. He did this by his own death, resurrection, ascension, and coronation. That is not the end of the world, nor the ultimate coming of Jesus. It is the beginning of the present earthly phase of the kingdom of God that will continue until the ultimate, visible return of Jesus from heaven to the vicinity of earth. When Jesus comes that last time “the heavens [atmosphere around the earth] shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall be dissolved with fervent heat, and the earth and the works that are therein shall be burned up … these things are thus all to be dissolved …(2 Peter 3:10-11). All who have eyes to see know that the atmosphere around the earth has not passed away, the earth and its works continue … not dissolved nor burned up … and can be sure that the ultimate coming of Jesus to earth has not happened.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18[Begin quote] 13 But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning them that fall asleep; that ye sorrow not, even as the rest, who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also that are fallen asleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;
17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words [End quote].
I emphasize some of the things Paul says would happen at “the coming of the Lord.” First, the shout of Jesus, the voice of the archangel, and the sounding of the trump of God. Second, the risen dead in Christ, and the changed, living saints on earth, shall be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Third, so shall the saved ever be with the Lord. This is entry into that kingdom where flesh and blood cannot go (1 Cor 15:50-58).
“So” is an adverb of manner, meaning in this way, or in this manner. The statement in verse 17 that “the dead in Christ shall rise first,” and “those that are alive, that are left” shall together be caught up to meet the Lord in the air, and “so” – in this manner – that is, in the air – shall the saved ever be
with the Lord. There will be no more living on earth, because the earth is no more, having been dissolved in fervent heat.
This has not happened. The earth is still here and people are continuing to live on it. The sainted dead and the living saints have not been caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and ever be with him in the air. Please note that word “ever.”
2 Thessalonians 1:7[Quote] 7 and to you that are afflicted rest with us, at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with the angels of his power in flaming fire,
8 rendering vengeance to them that know not God, and to them that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus:
9 who shall suffer punishment, even eternal destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
10 when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be marvelled at in all them that believed (because our testimony unto you was believed) in that day.
11 To which end we also pray always for you, that our God may count you worthy of your calling, and fulfil every desire of goodness and every work of faith, with power;
12 that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ [Unquote].
Here is what Paul says would happen “at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with the angels of his power in flaming fire.”
1. Vengeance will be rendered to them that know not God and obey not the gospel (v. 8)
2. Those who know not God and obey not the gospel shall suffer “eternal destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might” (v. 9)
3. Jesus will be glorified in his saints (v. 10)
4. The saved will marvel at Jesus (v. 10)
5. “Every” desire of goodness and “every” work of faith will be fulfilled (11)
6. Jesus will be glorified in the believers, and believers will be glorified in Jesus (v. 12)
Them that know not God and obey not the gospel include Osama Ben Laden and all other terrorists. It is obvious that the wicked of earth have not suffered “eternal destruction …” They sill swagger and kill the innocent. The six items stipulated above have not come to pass, and we can therefore be sure that the punishments and rewards Paul itemizes are in the future – not the past.
Albert Barnes, in commenting on 2 Thess 1:9, wrote, “It seems difficult to conceive how anyone can profess to hold that this passage is a part of the Word of God, and yet deny the doctrine of future eternal punishment. It would not be possible to state that doctrine in clearer language than this. It is never is in clearer language in any creed or confession of faith, and if it is not true that the wicked will be punished forever, then it must be admitted that it would not have been possible to reveal the doctrine in human language!” (Barnes’ Notes on the New Testament)
Revelation 14:14f 22:12, 20
Rev 14:14-20 says,[Begin quote] “And I saw, and behold, a white cloud; and on the cloud I saw one sitting like unto a son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out from the temple, crying with a great voice to him that sat on the cloud, Send forth thy sickle, and reap: for the hour to reap is come; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud cast his sickle upon the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 Another angel came out from the temple, which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, he that hath power over fire; and he called with a great voice to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Send forth thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel cast his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vintage of the earth, and cast it into the winepress, the great (winepress), of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and there came out blood from the winepress, even unto the bridles of the horses, as far as a thousand and six hundred furlongs” [End quote].
Don Preston’s question is, “Does this passage predict the ultimate coming of Christ?” This question correctly implies that the Bible speaks the “coming of Christ” in more than one sense. So, we begin our answer by noting several ways in which the Bible speaks of the “coming of Christ,” or its equivalent (coming of the Lord, coming of Jesus, coming of God, etc).
1. The coming of Christ, may be used of the coming of Jesus from heaven to earth to be the babe of Bethlehem (Luke 2:7). Some think of this as the “first” coming of Jesus.
2. The coming of Christ from one location on earth to another location on earth, as in his coming to Nazareth, or Jerusalem, or Capernaum, or Bethany (Matt 4:13).
3. A figurative coming of Christ (Matt 16:28; 24:27, 30). It is basic to an understanding of any literature to consider it as literal unless the context demands a figurative understanding.
4. The coming of Jesus to the ancient of Days (Dan 7:13-14).
5. The ultimate coming of Jesus from heaven to earth, sometimes called the second coming, is unto judgment, and destruction (Matt 24:36-44; 2 Pet 3:8-11).
A failure to distinguish between these various comings of Jesus, results in confusion. The coming of Rev 14:14-20 is unto judgment and destruction. It is the final judgment of earth. The earth was reaped and the wicked cast into the winepress of the wrath of God.
Revelation 22:12, 20
The two verses read,
Rev 22:12: “Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to each man according as his work is.”
Rev 22:20: “He who testifieth these things saith, Yea: I come quickly. Amen: come, Lord Jesus.”
The two passages refer to the ultimate coming of Jesus to judgment and destruction. There is a difference in coming quickly and in coming immediately. The ultimate coming of Jesus may not happen for 100,000 years, but when he comes it will be quick, that is fast. When the last trumpet sounds, and the voice of Jesus and archangel are heard, the atmosphere around the earth will pass away with a great noise, the earth will be dissolved in fervent heat and this will happen quickly … fast.
Preston’s Question # 3
In Matthew 24:29-31, Jesus predicted his coming on the clouds of heaven in power and great glory. Is this a prediction of Christ’s Second (i.e. ultimate) coming?
If your answer is no, please identify the coming that Jesus was predicting in these verses, and give your specific contextual and scriptural reasons for your answer.
Dobbs Answer to Preston’s Question # 3
The answer is no, but to explain the answer fully it is necessary to analyze Matthew 24, which is sometimes called The Olivet Discourse, because it was first delivered on Mount Olivet. Luke 21 and Mark 13 record the same lesson in almost the same words as Matthew 24, but with some additional information.
In parables and other teaching immediately prior to The Olivet Discourse Jesus spoke of the rejection of Israel as the chosen people of God and of the destruction of Jerusalem. The city had been destroyed once before under the force Babylonian might, and Jesus foretold its second destruction under a Roman army. Following the first destruction the city was rebuilt and it was rebuilt following Rome’s raze
of the city. It stands today and continues to be a hotbed of religious strife. Jesus had said of the Jewish temple that its massive building blocks would be thrown down and not one stone would be left upon another. Its ruin would be total. It is in ruins today.
The disciples of Jesus thought this teaching to be incredible, but supposed their Master had an explanation. Consequently, when they went out to the Mount of Olives, they asked him about it. The disciples could not conceive of a time when the Jewish Temple would not grace the brow of Zion, and wrongly concluded that when the temple was gone the world would also be gone. The question they put to Jesus was, “Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?” (Matt 24:3).
The answer Jesus gives in the remainder of the chapter deals with not one, but two questions. The first having to do with the razing of Jerusalem and ruination of the Jewish Temple, which would signify the full end of the Jewish system of religion (as outlined in the Law of Moses), and the other having to do with the end of the world and its annihilation.
He answers the first question in verses 4 through 33, and he answers the second in verses 34 through 51. Even a hasty reading of Matthew 24 makes evident the two sections of the discourse.
Verses 34 in Matthew 24 is pivotal. Jesus said, “[E]ven so ye also, when ye see all these things, know ye that he is nigh, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished” (Matt 24:33-34).
“When ye see all these things …” All what things? Well, all the things Jesus mentioned in verses 4 through 32. Jesus said the generation that heard him speak would not “pass away, till all these things be accomplished.” “All these things” happened within the lifetime of some of the people who heard with their own ears the teaching of Jesus as it first fell from his lips.
Now we will backtrack and discuss the things Jesus said would happen in the first century:
1 He mentions specifically false teachers would appear claiming to be the Christ (Messiah), there would be wars and rumors of wars, nation would rise against nation, famines and earthquakes in various places (vv. 5-8). These are signs of nothing. These things will happen as long as the world continues – every generation will see the repetition of such things. The conflict of carnal combat – the wrestling against flesh and blood – would eventually bring a Roman army to the gates of Jerusalem, and that would mark the beginning of the great travail that would leave Jerusalem smoking rubble. These things were merely the beginning of that travail (v. 8).
2 Jesus said false teachers would arise, and the love of many of the followers of Jesus would become cold (vv. 12-13).
? Those who endured – continued to be faithful – would escape this unspeakable fracas. The disciples would preach the gospel of the kingdom in the entire world before the full and final invalidation of the Sinai covenant (v. 14). A new covenant would replace the first covenant (Heb 8:8-12; 10:1-9). Jesus took away the first covenant to establish the second covenant (Heb 10:9). The new covenant would replace the old covenant. Jesus told his followers to leave Jerusalem in haste when the mighty army of Rome descended upon Jerusalem.
3 This was the “abomination of desolation” spoken of by the prophet Daniel (Dan 9:27; 12:11). To live, they had to flee (vv. 16-21). The Roman general Titus, on orders of his father the Emperor Vespasian, laid siege to Jerusalem on the 14th of Nisan, 70 AD, and the city fell 134 days later. The loss of life was enormous; refugees to Titus gave 600,000 as the number dead (Josephus, Jewish Wars. V, xiii,7). Jesus called this “the great tribulation.” There had been nothing like it previously; there has been nothing like it since. Believers were to leave the city at the first sign of the approach of the Roman army and get plumb away from Jerusalem (vv. 15-22).
4 The faithful were to ignore the false claims that Christ had physically returned to Jerusalem (v. 223-24). Such was not — and would never be — the case. That ignorant report continues to this day … and it continues to be wrong. Jesus warned us against it.
5 False prophets would lead astray, if possible, even the elect. Jesus said, “Behold, I have told you beforehand” (v. 25). He repeated the stern warning that saints are not to believe the wrongheaded claim that Jesus literally returned to Jerusalem at the time of the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel – the AD 70 destruction of Jerusalem (v. 26). The Son of God said to us, Do not believe it! Give it no credence! The report is false – utterly false! Those who circulate it are false prophets.
6 The great tribulation of AD 70 when Jerusalem fell to the superior power of Caesar is described by Jesus in prophetic imagery as the figurative “coming of the Son of man” (v. 27). Inspired teachers describe times of calamity as being like lightening and thunder (Job 37:1-5). “And Jehovah will cause his glorious voice to be heard, and will show the lighting down of his arm, with the indignation of his anger, and the flame of a devouring fire, with a blast, and tempest, and hailstones. For through the voice of Jehovah shall the Assyrian be dismayed; with his rod will he smite him” (Isa 30:30-31).
7 We know that Matthew 24:27-30 is figurative because the literal, ultimate coming of Jesus will provoke the “heavens passing away with a great noise” and “the earth and the works that are therein” being burned up (dissolved in fervent heat) (2 Pet 3:8-11). Since that has not happened – the earth is still here, we must conclude this is figurative, poetic, prophetic imagery.
8 Jesus said, “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken” (Matt 24:29). The same type metaphors and similes are in prophetic writing, as the prophets spoke of the collapse of world empires. Example: “For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine” (Isa 13:10), where the prophet speaks of the “burden of Babylon.” Other examples include Isa 34:4-5, Ezek 32:7-8, Joel 2:30-31 (quoted in Acts 2:19-20).
9 The idea of “coming in the clouds” is also prophetic type speech signifying a figurative visitation of deity in judgment and destruction, but not a literal coming (Isa 19:1, Psa 97:2-3, Psa 104:3).
The shaking and removal of Israel as the preferred people of God is compared to the removal of the natural branches of an olive tree that the branches of a wild olive tree might be grafted in (Rom 11:17-22). In the spiritual realm it was a traumatic event – a tremendous change. The gospel had been preached to every creature under heaven (Col 1:23). Now the way was open for the gospel to have free course throughout the earth (Matt 24:31). The angels (messengers) of God would proclaim “For, All flesh is as grass , And all the glory thereof as the flower of grass . The grass withereth, and the flower falleth: But the word of the Lord abideth for ever. And this is the word of good tidings which was preached unto you” (1 Peter 1:24-25).
Jesus says, clearly and emphatically, that all these things would happen within the gener
ation to which he spoke – the first century generation. Now, he turns to the second question. What shall be the sign … “of the end of the world?” His answer is unmitigated:
37 And as were the days of Noah, so shall be the coming of the Son of man.
38 For as in those days which were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
39 and they knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall be the coming of the Son of man.
40 Then shall two man be in the field; one is taken, and one is left:
41 two women shall be grinding at the mill; one is taken, and one is left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not on what day your Lord cometh.
43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what watch the thief was coming, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken through.
44 Therefore be ye also ready; for in an hour that ye think not the Son of man cometh [End quote] (Matt 24:36-44).
Preston’s Question # 4
Do you, Buster Dobbs, believe and agree that the time of the Second Coming (i.e. the ultimate coming), of Christ is the time when all of the martyrs of God will be vindicated / judged / rewarded?
If your answer is “no” please give specific scriptural and contextual support for your answer.
Dobbs’ Answer to Preston’s Question # 4
It depends on what you mean by “all the martyrs of God.” The word “martyr” can mean:
somebody who makes sacrifices: somebody who makes sacrifices or suffers greatly in order to advance a cause or principle
somebody in pain: somebody who experiences frequent or constant pain as a result of something
somebody seeking attention: somebody who complains a great deal in order to get sympathy from others
A martyr can be someone put to death for a cause, or it can mean someone who is willing to die for his convictions, but who is unharmed.
The question is too ambiguous to answer.
Preston’s Question # 5
According to Jesus in Matthew 5:17-18 did all (not just some), of the Old Testament have to be fulfilled before any of it could pass away?
Dobbs’ Answer to Preston’s Question # 5
Matt 5:17-18 reads: “Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished.”
Consider the following:
1. Jesus came to fulfil the law or the prophets
2. Jesus did what he came to do
3. Therefore Jesus fulfilled the law or the prophets
That being true, the question is inessential, and therefore unanswerable, or based on a misunderstanding therefore irrelevant.
“The voice of one saying, Cry. And one said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field. The grass withereth, the flower fadeth, because the breath of Jehovah bloweth upon it; surely the people is grass. The grass withereth, the flower fadeth; but the word of our God shall stand forever” (Isa 40:6-8).
Preston’s Question # 6
Please specifically identify “the law” that Paul calls “the strength of sin” in 1 Corinthians 15:55-56.
Dobbs’ Answer to Preston’s Question # 6
Rom 4:15: “for the law worketh wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there transgression.”
Rom 5:13: “for until the law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law.”
Rom 7:24-8:2: “Wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me out of the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then I of myself with the mind, indeed, serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death.”
Preston’s Question # 7
In your opinion, Buster Dobbs, please identify, to the best of your ability, the Harlot city Babylon in the book of Revelation.
Dobbs’ Answer to Preston’s Question # 7
Since this is not a question, but is asking for a comment, it is inappropriate. There is no way to answer a non-question. The word “Babylon” occurs 6 times in the book of Revelation.
Rev 18:2-3 says, "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a dwelling place for demons, a haunt for every unclean spirit, a haunt for every unclean bird, a haunt for every unclean and detestable beast. For all nations have drunk the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality, and the kings of the earth have committed immorality with her, and the merchants of the earth have grown rich from the power of her luxurious living."
Preston’s Question # 8
At what point of time and with what event were, or will, all of God’s Old Covenant promises to Old Covenant Israel (be) fulfilled and His covenant relationship with Old Covenant Israel terminated? Please specify and give scriptural support for your answer.
Dobbs’ Answer to Preston’s Question # 8
See my answer to Preston’s question # 3
Preston’s Question # 9
Is physical death the enemy of the child of God, that is today redeemed and cleansed by the blood of Jesus? Please give supporting scripture for your answer?
If your answer is yes, in what way, and for what reason is physical death the enemy of the child of God, redeemed and cleansed by the blood of Jesus today? Please give specific scriptural support for your answer.
Dobbs Answer to Preston’s Question # 9
“And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as one dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying, Fear not; I am the first and the last, and the Living one; and I was dead , and behold, I am alive for evermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades” (Rev 1:18).
Preston’s Question # 10
When Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit in the Garden, did they die the very day they ate of that fruit?
Dobbs Answer to Preston’s Question # 10