Larry Bunch Versus Don K. Preston
Larry A. Bunch’s Second Negative
Proposition: The Bible teaches that the Second (i.e. final) coming of Christ, the judgment and the resurrection of the dead occurred at the time of the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70.
Affirm: Don K. Preston
Deny: Larry A. Bunch
First, let me dispel any thoughts that I refuse to study the O.T. and that I know nothing about the O.T. I know much relative to the O.T. and am not opposed to a study of it. What I meant, in this debate, is that I’m not going to take the time to study in depth the ideas set forth by Don because I believe his CONCLUSIONS are in ERROR and I will show this to be so by the NEW TESTAMENT. I have not gone into an in-depth study of passages he has offered because to do so would result in an almost endless post! In my humble estimation, if Don wanted IN-DEPTH replies or analysis of his arguments and Scriptures used, he should have LIMITED himself to a COUPLE of Scriptures!
I will also admit that I do not have the expertise to deal with Daniel 9 and the 70 weeks. That does not mean that I cannot deny DON’S DOCTRINE regarding it, though! That can be done via the NEW TESTAMENT.
Note: I noticed that ITALICS and BOLD and other EMPHASIS in my first post did not carry over to the list posting. Therefore, I shall use CAPITAL letters for EMPHASIS.
Don wrote: <… If the N. T. writers all appeal to the O. T. for their eschatological beliefs, then for Larry to say other wise, and to either deny or to ignore the connection is to indeed preach another gospel than did the N. T. writers.>
No, Don, it doesn’t mean I preach ANOTHER gospel because I preach the SAME gospel as that found in the N.T. It is your Max King doctrine that is a DIFFERENT GOSPEL! That is not found in the N.T.
Don wrote: <Their eschatology was the hope of Israel. Larry says his eschatology is the hope of the church, cut off from Israel. That is a different message.>
I searched my first negative and found nothing like you wrote above. I don’t even know what you mean by such a statement.
I wrote: <<Don, you seem to denigrate my lack of knowledge regarding the O.T.. Tell us, can one be saved eternally if one has only the N.T.?>
Don responds: <Larry, why don’t you tell us this: First, is your eschatology, is your gospel, based on the yet future fulfillment of God’s O. T. promises to Israel?> <Second, where did Paul say that Christians can and should find comfort and hope?> <Third, what scriptures did Paul say were able to make one wise to salvation?> <Fourth, to what scriptures did the N. T. writers appeal when they spoke of their eschatological hopes?>
Don doesn’t answer my question but instead asks me four questions and expects me to answer them! Uh … maybe FIVE QUESTIONS, as he asks another after those above. (I’m not including it here.)
Don Apologizes: <With these things said, let me apologize to Larry if he took my comments personally.>
Don asks another question (remember, he didn’t answer mine, above): <Larry, is it possible to properly exegete scriptures without knowing and considering the proper context of the scriptures? The answer of course is no. A scripture taken out of context is a pretext!>
Every N.T. passage may be understood in the context of the N.T. One does not have to be an expert in O.T. teaching to understand, believe, obey and be a recipient of the promise of life everlasting after the resurrection at the end of time.
Don writes: <On Daniel 9> <Larry has exhibited confusion on Daniel 9. In response to my question about when Daniel 9 was fulfilled he said, "I don’t know," but cited Wallace to the effect that it was fulfilled no later than A.D. 70.>
Don, I will concede that EVERYTHING in Daniel Nine HAS BEEN FULFILLED but there are PROMISES in the NEW TESTAMENT regarding the RESURRECTION, JUDGMENT, END OF the WORLD, REWARDS and PUNISHMENTS that are yet TO BE FULFILLED. When you consign such promises to Daniel Nine, you are just wrong about the matter!
Don writes: <The problem is that Larry is assuming a doctrine of the "end of the world," and has not offered one jot or tittle as proof. Simply generically alluding to 2 Peter 3 does not constitute proof of his position, either.>
I’m just trying to deny your assertion that it all was fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.
Don has submitted so much material that it is hard to deal with it all. He charges me several times with not answering his arguments. It is easy to overlook what I have said, even for me to overlook it! He claims I have not dealt with Daniel 9, but I have.
Don had written: <Seventy Weeks were determined to put away sin (Daniel 9:24).>>>
<<<The Seventy Weeks extend no further than the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70.>>> <<<I know that the complete fulfillment of Daniel 9 did not take place at the Cross, or Pentecost, or at the calling of the Gentiles, because the taking away of Israel’s sin was still future to Paul in Romans 11 and 1 Corinthians 15, and, it would occur at the coming of Christ.>>>
I wrote: <<All was not fulfilled at Pentecost but the remission of sins was certainly fulfilled and did not have to wait until 70 A.D. for this to occur!>>
There is not a word in Daniel, much less in Daniel 9, about a resurrection! If there is, I MISSED IT and it will have to be pointed out to me! Don’s CONCLUDING, by his erroneous arguments, that it includes the resurrection DOES NOT MAKE IT SO!
Don writes: <For Larry to falsify my affirmative, as I have noted repeatedly, Larry must show that the putting away of sin foretold by Daniel 9 has nothing to do with the time of the resurrection. He has not
even tried to do so, and cannot.>
Don’s connecting it with the resurrection does not make it so. The ONLY resurrection connected with the PUTTING AWAY OF SIN is the RESURRECTION from the WATER GRAVE of BAPTISM. There is NO resurrection from the grave connected with the putting away of sin EXCEPT in reference to the promise to the Christian that this will occur when the Lord returns at the end of time.
Don writes: <I argued, directly from Daniel 9:24-27, that> <Seventy weeks were determined to put away sin. Larry, is this true or not?>
Already answered! But, of course, ignored! I wrote in my first negative: <<What you need to realize is that the sin of Israel is taken away also IN EXACTLY THE SAME WAY AS THE SIN OF ANYONE AND ON AN INDIVIDUAL BASIS, NOT A NATIONAL ONE. In fact, Don, 3,000 Israelites had their sins taken away as recorded in Acts 2!>>
Don writes: <The putting away of sin is inextricably connected to the resurrection from the dead (1 Corinthians 15:54-56)- in fulfillment of God’s O. T. promises to Israel. Larry, is this true, or false?>
Already answered, see my paragraph above, copied from my first negative.
1 Corinthians 15:54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."
This has reference to the end of time, when the Lord returns, the dead are raised, judgment (sentencing) is handed out, eternity begins, rewards and punishments are realized.
Don argues some matters relative to Daniel 9 and 1 Cor.15. He then writes: <Did Larry address the argument? No.> < Did Larry even attempt to delineate between these texts? Not a word.>
Don’s affirmation that I didn’t answer this does not make it so. I did not go into the detail that I’m sure Don wants, but it was answered nevertheless and will be dealt with further in my affirmation.
Don writes: <… "We shall not all sleep" (1 Corinthians 15:50-51). Paul affirmed that his generation>
No, Don, Paul affirmed no such thing. He is simply affirming that there would be Christians alive when the Lord returns, that all humankind would not have perished from the earth at the Lord’s return.
Don writes: <Paul’s doctrine of the resurrection is from and based on the fulfillment of the O. T. promises to Israel.>
No, Don, 1 Corinthians 15 is not based on such a fulfillment.
Don charges me with evasion regarding his motif question. It was no evasion; I deny the allegation and the alligator! (As brother Spears is fond of saying!) It was an honest question as to what Don meant by the question.
Don wants a yes or no answer: <Larry, is the putting away of sin inextricably linked with the resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15? Yes or No?>
No, Don, not in the way you want it. The only connection is that those of us who believe in the Lord and have our sins removed, even those from Pentecost (Acts 2) to 70 A.D., have no fear of death and will be raised to life everlasting.
Don tells me how I should go about this debate: <Now, Larry, the proper way for you to refute my arguments is to take the propositions, and prove that they are false. You have not examined even one of my major or minor premises, of any of my syllogisms. You have not offered one iota of refutation, other than to say I am wrong. That is not proof, and is somewhat less than convincing.>
I’m sorry, Don, I didn’t know you were presenting sillygisms! I have always seen them numbered, you know, 1., 2., 3.; perhaps you should have done this.
A little tongue-in-cheek in the above, but I am not a debate specialist and am not schooled in the art of syllogisms and consequently did not deal with them as such.
Don writes: <Larry denies that resurrection / parousia would finish the atonement, insisting that the atonement was finished at the Cross.>
When referencing the CROSS as finishing the atonement, I mean that all things connected with the CROSS have (now) been fulfilled. Certainly a little time after Jesus’ death was necessary to accomplish ALL things. He did not enter into Heaven itself (Holy of Holies) to present Himself as a sacrifice for our sins for several days (40?) after His death/resurrection. The Jewish economy was not completely ended until the destruction of Jerusalem. This, however, does not affirm or prove your contentions that the taking away of sin was not consummated until 70 A.D. and that the resurrection was accomplished in 70 A.D. with the destruction of Jerusalem.
Don writes: <First, the charismata were given to assure the consummation of the redemptive process (2 Corinthians 5:5; Colossians 1:12-13, 4:32). Larry, do we today have the charismata as the "arrabon" (guarantee), of the resurrection?>
Don’s claim of the passages referenced is not valid; there is not enough evidence to back up his claim. Brethren are disagreed over the "pledge" of 2 Cor.5:5 and just exactly what is meant by it; Col.1:12-13 has nothing to do with what Don asserts and I couldn’t find Col.4:32.
Don concludes: <My proposition stands proven: The Bible teaches that the second (i.e. final) coming of Christ, the judgment and the resurrection of the dead occurred at the time of the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70.>
No, Don, your proposition does not stand proven because the Bible does NOT teach that the second (i.e. final) coming of Christ and all associated with it occurred at the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.
Here are a few thoughts on Daniel Nine (See GOD’S PROPHETIC WORD by Foy E. Wallace, pages 513-518):===========…destruction of Jerusalem, shown by the quotation of verse 27 in Matthew 24:15. …===========(Mat 24:15 ESV "So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), Dan 9:27 ESV … And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, …)==========…the seventy weeks relate to the whole period between the proclamation of Cyrus and the end of the Jewish commonwealth. It cannot be chance that from the seventh year of Artaxerxes, when the commission was given to Ezra to restore Jerusalem, to the death of Christ, it was precisely the number of the weeks of years; and that from the death of Christ to the command given to Peter to preach to Cornelius it was precisely one week of seven years; and that from Vespasian’s march into Judea to the taking of Jerusalem it was precisely a half septenary of years, corresponding with the event of abomination and desolation to take place in the midst of one week.===========The beginning boundary date is fixed by Daniel’s statement "from the going forth of the commandment" in Dan.9:25, and the ending boundary date is fixed by the Lord’s quotation
in Matthew 24:15 concerning the "abomination of desolation" which was fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem under Nero and Vespasian, A.D. 70.===========
1. Seventy weeks from the commandment–Dan. 9:23-27.
2. Finish the transgression and make an end of sin–Heb.10:12; Eph. 2:15.
3. Bring everlasting righteousness–Rom.3:21-31.
4. Reconciliation for iniquity–Col.1:20; Heb.2:17.
5. Anoint the most Holy–Acts 4:26-27; Heb.1:8-9.
6. The Messiah cut off–Isa.53:8; Acts 8:32-33.
7. Destroy the city and sanctuary–Matt.24:1-34.
8. Covenant confirmed with many–Acts 10:34; Rom.9:30.
9. Seal up the vision–indicating the completed vision by its fulfillment in the events specified.
That the confirmation of the covenant in the prophecy refers to the inclusion of the Gentiles is shown by the connection of Rom.9:30-33 and 1 Pet.2:1-10, both of which passages show that the covenant of Isa.28:16 includes the Gentiles, and finds fulfillment in Peter’s statement in Acts 10:34 at the house of Cornelius: "Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."
The Messiah was cut off at the crucifixion of Christ, finishing the transgression, making an end of sin, making reconciliation for iniquity, and bringing in the covenant for everlasting righteousness–but among the Jews the sacrifices, oblations and all the services of the temple continued until the destruction of Jerusalem. It was that event that should "cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease," and the reason given was "for the overspreading of abominations . . . even until the consummation." (End Quotes From Wallace)
There is no reason to suppose and postulate that the end of sin did not occur until the destruction of Jerusalem or that the resurrection and judgment took place at that time. Those ideas and others come from the fertile imagination of Max King and others.
With this, I bring my second negative to a close and look forward to Don’s third and final affirmation.–brotherly, Larry
Working with the Caprock church in Lubbock Texas
Larry A. Bunch
4912 60th St
Lubbock TX 79414-4404
806-791-1951 (home phone)
806-252-0039 (cell phone)